“Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.”

- Ambrose Bierce

No human being has ever seen anything eternal or seen any other world than this one. And every religion makes similarly extraordinary but very different claims. No one has yet shown me why I should believe one religion’s claims over any other.

Science deals strictly with what is observed and can be tested for accuracy. Life evolves observably regardless of your religious views or ideology. If your religious interpretation conflicts with that then it’s simply wrong. Just as any theology that said the earth is motionless would be just plain wrong. And christians used to maintain that too before galileo and copernicus.

If you want one heathen’s advice it’s this – if you want your beliefs to mean anything, don’t try to believe anything. Try instead to understand. Because trying to believe is literally make believe. Willful self-deception.

@New1E13_15 - ”Faith is not arguing with facts”

Meaning?

“and I have noticed that most historical sources which back Christianity are often shunned by the nonereligious because they don’t agree with the perspective of those who make the claims, despite their scientific credentials. At other times theye pick and chose what they acknowledge.”

This is the old “if only we treated jesus as fairly as we treat people like alexander the great we would acknowledge his divinity” argument. The problem with that is that atheists actually treat jesus exactly as fairly as they treat alexander the great, who was claimed and believed in his day to be the son of god, immaculately conceived, born of a virgin and said to fulfill prophecies, some from the bible. The only difference is he was said to have been immaculately conceived by zeus. We reject the supernatural qualities attributed to countless figures in antiquity. Religious, political and military leaders very frequently had mystical claims circulating about them, the stories about jesus circulated when people still believed in the greek gods. Historical accuracy doesn’t enter into it – in reality you are the one picking and choosing what to believe – I reject all mythologies and religions equally. You say x prophecy is valid and ignore the prophecies of every other religion. X miracle is real and every other religion’s miracles are phony.

“For instance Hitler loved to use Martin Luther’s words in attacking the Jews but he had no use for the other teachings of this man.”

Hitler had his own theology.

“No one has seen supernatural ???? While much is demonic you can’t say that at all and many historical accounts recount supernatural events.”

I said no one has experienced anything eternally or seen an afterlife. And “supernatural” or “demonic” is just what we call that which we don’t understand. The flu used to be considered demonic. History is a chronicle of mankind crawling out of total ignorance, of course the further back you go the more “supernatural” claims there will be in every culture. People say god doesn’t perform miracles anymore – I don’t think he ever did. I think now we can just document things and now everyone knows things like that don’t happen.

“However you have to look no further than the survival of the Jewish people. This people by all reasons should have been assimilated into other nations many years ago if there were not divine intervention.”

So the fact that a group that is ideologically bent on not being assimilated into other cultures hasn’t been (completely) assimilated into other cultures is proof of divine intervention? Seems pretty mundane to me. By that logic the fact that native americans still exist as a separate culture with their own languages and religions is proof of native american spirits.

“Ultimately it’s not about what you believe in a religion but who you know. There are others who have met spirits which indwell them. I have met the Lord Jesus Christ and if you do not know Him then I agree you can’t see him, though you can observe his work. While many claim the title Christian and show no signs of change the power of the gospel has beem such that no set of beliefs or powerfull phsychology could accomplish it.”

I don’t think anyone has spirits in themselves or has met jesus christ. I think beliefs are powerful things and that how you interpret things can have a profound effect on your character, personality, behavior, emotions etc. Whether you believe you are god or you know god or you serve the devil or you can heal people by touching them or you’re psychic or you can talk to the dead or any of a thousand other things people believe.

@New1E13_15 - I notice you ignored a great deal of my comment.

“There are several differences between Alexander and Jesus. Alexander is still not widely worshipped.”

You’re changing the subject. My point was about historicity vs mythology and standards of evidence. You’re ignoring that point and making a new argument.

“The teachings of his have not survived to that great of an extent.”

If worship of zeus was the only legal form of worship in the roman empires and the european monarchies that sprung from it, it would have. If the teachings of mohammad were the only legal form of worship in the roman empire and british theocracies islam would rule half of the world right now. The most powerful empire in the world has the power to decide what the biggest religion in the world will be. There’s nothing mystical about it.

“Alexander did not turn down others offer to make him an earthly king. Jesus very easily could have chosen to defy the Romans as others did. To my knowledge Alexander was never claimed to have risen from the dead and his followers did not endure such great hardships to spread his name.”

What does any of this have to do with anything I said? The stories of jesus and alexander the great are not identical therefore what? Did you even read my comment? This is irrelevant. No two historical or mythological figures are identical.

“Finally Jesus body was never found; with all of the people eager to prove the nonsene of Christianity if he did not rise some historical proof would have been found.”

The bodies of many (probably almost all) historical figures cannot be found, they tend to decompose, be stolen, destroyed, buried in anonymous graves, mass graves etc. And even if we found a corpse there would be no way to verify it was the corpse of jesus. And there are many shrines and temples built around myths, so even if there was a “tomb of jesus” it wouldn’t necessarily even be real, it could just be some local legend people took seriously.

“Native Americans were never singled out with such hatred as the Jews.”

So how correct your ancestors’ claims are is determined by how much hatred you undergo? So the more americans hate islam and bomb muslim countries the more allah is real? If we wiped out muslims almost entirely it would 100% validate their religious views? This is very poor logic, which is why you would never apply it to any worldview but your own.

“Native Americans have not been dispersed all over the world. The Jews are bound to their identity, but what other tenacious culture can you cite that has gone through the same degradation, hostility and dispersion, then reemergence as a nation?”

Nations have re-emerged after being conquered, and without the help of the only remaining super-power which happens to be overwhelmingly christian and believe in protecting israel for religious reasons. If muslims get a palestinian state does that legitimize their views? Again none of this has anything to do with whether their claims are correct. A group of people can be hated and be wrong at the same time.

“Hitler had his own agenda- Yes he did. So also do many educators, philosophers and historians. I know of no person who does not see things through a colored lense. Sometimes they may just need perverbial glasses to open their eyes to what the facts already show.”

I said he had his own theology, not his own agenda. And are you seriously comparing school teachers to hitler?

“Nothing supernatural? I would say an educated man has to see that the charlataans and such do not exist because there is no higher power but because there is.”

I didn’t say anything about charlatans or them existing because there is no higher power. I said that mystical beliefs are psychologically powerful whether they are correct or not and I see no reason to accept any of these so-called supernatural claims. Or do you think every mystical claim other than those in christianity is correct and from satan? Can’t people just be wrong or naive without being possessed by the devil?

“Concerning spirits and the supernatural. It is not only backwards cultures that have a hunger for the supernatural but the advanced as well for today you will find astrology , meditation, luck charms, belief in gods and many other signs of both God and the devi thriving in the technologically savvy world as well as in the nations still not so enlightened.”

I don’t think people hunger for the supernatural, I think they hunger for understanding, comfort, to feel important etc and mysticism is one of many ways to feed those needs. There isn’t a “god shaped hole” in your heart any more than there’s a “pizza shaped hole” in your stomach.